NZ Digital Academy pre-videoconference 2 July ideas for discussion

searnshaw · June 24, 2019, 7:14am

I agree it’d be good to have someone from UC onboard. I’ve done all of the papers in their PGCert course (as part of my MBA) and I think some could be an excellent part of what we are trying to achieve.

KarenDay · June 24, 2019, 7:15am

We’ll leave it up to you to invite them to the group
J

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searnshaw

Steve Earnshaw
NZ Clinical informatics Leadership Network Member

June 24

I agree it’d be good to have someone from UC onboard. I’ve done all of the papers in their PGCert course (as part of my MBA) and I think some could be an excellent part of what we are trying to achieve.

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k.day

Karen Day
NZ Clinical informatics Leadership Network Member

June 24

Agree Inga. I also have students with different needs and most of my courses are built to accommodate those differences. I expect the
Digital Academy is also designed to accommodate and leverage differences to enhance learning.

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k.day

Karen Day
NZ Clinical informatics Leadership Network Member

June 24

Steve, we should have someone from UC in this discussion, just to be fair.

If they have 10-point courses, that’s a little different from the 15-points courses you would expect in NZ universities. We will need to bear this in mind when
working out equivalence.

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k.day

Karen Day
NZ Clinical informatics Leadership Network Member

June 24

Good summary Inga. The deadline for prescription and course title changes at Auckland Uni is April each year, so if we want to change
titles we need to get weaving asap.

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k.day

Karen Day
NZ Clinical informatics Leadership Network Member

June 24

The Master of Health Leadership at The University of Auckland has the mix of courses you’re looking for but with a different pitch
from what you’re looking for (i.e. doesn’t specifically address senior leaders). We would need to get permission to have a PG Cert, but I don’t think this would be onerous.

Alternatively, my PG Cert in Health Informatics (at the University of Auckland) can be customised to your needs. The course selection
needs to be internally approved.

I know a professor who has successfully had two different groups of people doing the same course, e.g. Masters level researchers with
PhD researchers, without either group feeling like they’re in the wrong cohort or feeling too much/little of the right kind of learning challenge. Internally the University of Auckland can address this adjustment to split two cohorts in a single class, which
shouldn’t be onerous.

In terms of ‘tuning the courses’ to the executive participants’ needs, we can do this with a number of different tools. At this stage
we would need some help from the UK Digital Academy to do the tuning.

I speak for The University of Auckland. Perhaps the other academics have something just as adjustable for you.

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NathanK · June 24, 2019, 9:12am

The NHS Digital Academy has been successful over the incumbent very good University courses (of which there are many in the UK) because the practicalities are tailored for busy clinicians / digital leaders.

A standard university course is locked into a rigid schedule, and has to be fitted into ‘spare time’; while for some clinicians / digital leaders this is possible, for many this is virtually impossible unless they do something radical in their lives (involving markedly less pay). This is simply not practical for most (especially if they have young families).

The NHS Digital Academy achieves this by:

Enforcing CEO support - they must sign off on the pupil having 10 hours per week of their existing job allocated (and paid) for them to study.
Being spread over the entire year
Mentoring a work based project done in work time

We must do the same. The other stuff (while important) is very much secondary.

i.hunter · June 24, 2019, 10:05am

I totally agree with your comments Nathan. 1 and 3 are employer related and are critical. I have employers grant time during work for standard uni programmes but it is rare in the health sector so yes most have to study in their own time. It would be good if dedicated study time was available to all employees as part of their development but that’s an ideal world. 1 and 3 mean that the we would need buyin from health organisations to provide 1 and 3.

With regards to 2, I saw in the UK pamphlet that they don’t start until around March. Do we know when they finish? Is it 12 months or 10 months to accommodate holidays?

University’s run generally across 3 semesters or trimesters per year. Courses can be single semester, double semester or full-year. Yes, they have to fit with the University cycles of work, even a bespoke programme has Uni deadlines especially if students which to graduate. There are ways to manage this though. And not all programmes fit the general template.

It would be possible to be essentially full year with the residential workshops to start mid Feb and run through until end of November, ending again with a residential Workshop. Or to run another course over the summer break

I have been discussing the academic qualification that might be with an NZ DA rather than the employer aspect as I have more experience with it. I can see three options - a whole new programme PG cert or PG Dip with has the same modules for everyone taught the same way, workshops, networking, employer support, etc all in one package and runs for a calendar year or using existing PG Cert or PGDip programmes and wrap the rest around it as an enhanced academic programme that is not part of the academic qualification. The third option would be to not have an academic qualification attached at all, rather a corporate or professional qualification. It depends on the vision and goal of an NZ DA programme and how much needs to to a formal academic qualification. It could be a professional development course run by Unis which has a different set of establishment considerations.

I mention using existing programmes as a quicker way to get that aspect of the overall programme up and running and time seems to important. Additional content developed by the programme could be fed back to academic online learning as content to be added.

I totally agree that the academic online learning is the lesser of the overall programme components so maybe we minimise the work involved to set that up and focus more on the employer buyin, workshops, networking which are the more experiencial aspects of the programme and take into account work experience.
I am happy to help with which ever programme design people wish to go.

NathanK · June 24, 2019, 10:30am

I believe that it was the full 12 months, 1 April to 31 March. Translated to Southern Hemisphere thinking it would be the equivalent of starting on 1 Oct and finishing 30 Sept, so that holidays are not relevant. Of course, things would need to ease off over summer in NZ.

KarenDay · June 24, 2019, 10:45am

What we have not talked about is the value proposition of the DA for employers. What’s in it for them? Why would they sponsor (and possibly fund) and support their senior (and aspiring senior) personnel? What will they get out of it?

All my degrees (Dip in Gen Nurs and Midwifery, BA, MA, PhD, PG Cert in Academic Practice) were embedded in my jobs at the time I did them, and I negotiated time at work to be used for my studies. My BA was an advanced nursing degree and I had to get my employer and many others to sign off practicum, allow me to attend workshops, and give me opportunities to do projects. I studied in front of my patients, peers and bosses during quiet times when I was nursing. Later, when I was working in a research unit my professor got me special permission to enrol in postgraduate studies (I didn’t have high enough grades) and my studies were part of my job.

When I worked in insurance I told the CEO I was going to do my Masters thesis and couldn’t work overtime. He negotiated with me to do my research on a project for him. I was given the best actuaries in the country to help me, a full data report on my project for my thesis (computer crashed the company when it printed the report), and any time I needed at work to do the project, and he paid my enrolment fees. I negotiated my PhD with my boss at Waitemata DHB because I was in a change manager role involved in business process reengineering. Much of my day job was integrated into my PhD (I ended up with too much data). I did literature searches, held change workshops, conducted interviews, all as part of my job and my PhD.

Now, as a teacher and researcher in health informatics, I ask my students to embed their studies in their jobs. Do their assignments on aspects of their jobs that they want to learn more about (albeit within the university formats, e.g. business case or innovation report. What I struggle with is to get my students to negotiate with their bosses for them to be able to use their workplace to situate their learning – perhaps I should be negotiating with employers but my recent research is showing that employers don’t really know what they want from their digital staff and if they did know, they aren’t articulating it well.

I don’t know what the problem is, but we need to overcome it. It’s a combination of factors to do with universities and how they work, employers not understanding the value proposition of digital qualifications, and lack of funding. I would argue that employers and their staff are not having the important conversation about lifelong learning and how it can benefit the service they work in. Some of my students pull off this arrangement but many don’t, and not for lack of trying.

So how do we overcome this problem? I suggest that we (CILN, academics, anyone with influence) have conversations with employers about the value proposition. The money conversation will follow once we all know that they are happy with the value proposition.

i.hunter · June 30, 2019, 11:27pm

Hi Steve
I’m just checking that the VC meeting is still happening tomorrow 2 July.

Thanks Inga

KarenDay · June 30, 2019, 11:31pm

Hi Inga. It should be in your diary for 6.30 pm tomorrow night, complete with Zoom link.

i.hunter · June 30, 2019, 11:47pm

Thanks Karen

···

On 1/07/2019, at 11:31 AM, Karen Day via Digital Health Networks discourse-notifications@digitalhealth.net wrote:

large,

rebecca.grainger,
tamzin,
karenblake,
robyn.whittaker,
Ihunter,
rebecca,
rkgeorge,
k.day,
jon_herries,
searnshaw,
shunternz,
kim1,
michael.hosking,
a.dunham.

NathanK · July 1, 2019, 6:01am

@searnshaw, do you have any pre-meeting thoughts, questions, or an agenda for us?

searnshaw · July 1, 2019, 8:56am

Hi,

Thanks everyone for some great discussion. Here’s a suggested agenda for tomorrow’s videoconference:

Do we all support the DA concept?
Who should the first cohort target? - possibly CIO & CCIOs
What academic level initially? - possibly PGCert
Develop new material/use NHS material/use existing papers?
Do we aim for cross university approach?
Do we link to CHIA?
Is there MOH support for us to proceed?
If so who should be in a subgroup to develop BC?
Next steps?

Thanks
Steve

BeckyGeorge · July 1, 2019, 9:00am

Looks good Steve,
I’ll be joining you all just after 7 if that’s okay?

KarenDay · July 1, 2019, 9:10am

Nice list Steve. Can we also discuss what’s in it for Treasury to fund it and why would health services support participants? Both of these could be showstoppers if value proposition is not compelling.

···

From: Steve Earnshaw via Digital Health Networks [discourse-notifications@digitalhealth.net]
Sent: Monday, 1 July 2019 8:56 p.m.
To: Karen Day
Subject: [dhn] [PM] Re: NZ Digital Academy pre-videoconference 2 July ideas for discussion

[https://ehealthforum.nz/user_avatar/discourse.digitalhealth.net/searnshaw/45/2925_2.png] searnshawhttps://u1980013.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=KFL5ItWFbQhXGlA8EdfEZ7OjpLWhnuogorrzvtKUpwzFPm96tB7J-2F6HQ2qL9Gqd6Eb63YQcPQJhR3zPa5TdQQA-3D-3D_VyJj-2FlpeMpYQs5Czwo-2F20ficKf4UkmzHZanfG8RJyL-2BrDKQCYJTkpyEb0lo-2Fn1TJ-2FSs43lcxI56slqCwhrLFO2kHWgqtDVesWDc0cazupyN7eSXoLjcIGbecSmqupxJPKcm0qfhqBDjc-2BpiU1p81Shx-2FXN8uW6J2HM-2FSmgAehftvT6zSQTpbkQ0yPzdeFGV2fTJWh86zMvsqvMKvqJy6OJI5UP1wKvMJkOFFiY6MNxQ-3D Steve Earnshawhttps://u1980013.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=KFL5ItWFbQhXGlA8EdfEZ7OjpLWhnuogorrzvtKUpwzFPm96tB7J-2F6HQ2qL9Gqd6Eb63YQcPQJhR3zPa5TdQQA-3D-3D_VyJj-2FlpeMpYQs5Czwo-2F20ficKf4UkmzHZanfG8RJyL-2BrDKQCYJTkpyEb0lo-2Fn1TJOcVum5-2F9ob6Nrb-2BHK13HHO8wecjqHUxJfDWHZqAKrQxhhj-2B1abluEgagJQj-2B0tBPQvr5kenGGmSicf42FZWYKrO2g9fkQZ6hScFb76QVzdGrrLu1-2B-2F0SSC2xx5KdW1K1XdRNHolyoNNU6k4v7cfdFqldwRSuzHss9NnuXM9G-2FGo-3D NZ Clinical informatics Leadership Network Member
July 1

Hi,

Thanks everyone for some great discussion. Here’s a suggested agenda for tomorrow’s videoconference:

Do we all support the DA concept?
Who should the first cohort target? - possibly CIO & CCIOs
What academic level initially? - possibly PGCert
Develop new material/use NHS material/use existing papers?
Do we aim for cross university approach?
Do we link to CHIA?
Is there MOH support for us to proceed?
If so who should be in a subgroup to develop BC?
Next steps?

Thanks
Steve

To unsubscribe from these emails, click herehttps://u1980013.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=KFL5ItWFbQhXGlA8EdfEZ7OjpLWhnuogorrzvtKUpwxbo4eD2fgdHH2PWyWmgm7j76132aOqJQ8Y5ow3mYwh-2FecVdeGtY4r6SvwnjgVswSURdulDPuqlGp4uoVyRCBjubaau6Yz-2BgDOxYeIuwftJGh-2FP8qZaqu6AwfwtwlFE5dI-3D_VyJj-2FlpeMpYQs5Czwo-2F20ficKf4UkmzHZanfG8RJyL-2BrDKQCYJTkpyEb0lo-2Fn1TJxHR92oIBpdjXWfRBm3Wy-2BDtwNZyOetJQOAUM3bUH8iyhngDU3Z-2BP8RitkHLkaanufdJ5VVRoDFPoyE2jQMOGtBEM9TQamEXTLV4a89VR7h-2Bnoysw8HoYPDtep-2BH6InIqPssx0x58GL5Vq99ltgkbkgF4T1e9KmgPyxoKgmfv3IU-3D.

tamzin · July 1, 2019, 9:18am

Hi all, I’m tentative at the moment but hoping to be able to join in later.
Tamzin

RMcBeth · July 1, 2019, 11:30pm

FYI I’m at a HealthTech Conference today where David Clark spoke and mentioned that he has received advice on the nHIP and expects it to go to Cabinet this month or next…

NathanK · July 2, 2019, 5:48am

At the risk of sounding stupid, what is nHIP again? Something to do with us getting money from the government if we are lucky I take it.

KarenDay · July 2, 2019, 6:25am

nHIP = National health information platform
https://www.hinz.org.nz/news/news.asp?id=452553

···

nathan

Nathan Kershaw
CiLN co-chair & NZiF Moderator

July 2

rebecca:

nHIP

At the risk of sounding stupid, what is nHIP again? Something to do with us getting money from the government if we are lucky I take it.

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NathanK · July 2, 2019, 7:45am

Notes / Minutes -currently DRAFT

Present:
@Sheree, @searnshaw, @i.hunter, @KarenDay, @jon_herries, @michael.hosking, Karolyn from ACHI, @nathan, @KimMundell

Concern @i.hunter :how does this fit within a career trajectory of ongoing learning, what is the problem that we are seeking to solve and is this ongoing or a point in time?

The point of difference: access for people in post, building a network.

The problem:

The workforce needs to be able to access money and time to train
Our digital leaders have a real need.
The future / pipeline is very important.

@KarenDay - A lot of value in targeting the leaders. A major issue is that the university is not delivering what people in the workforce want. But there hasn’t been a lot of fruit from previous efforts to do this.

@michael.hosking : applicability to the real world is the key. Lessons are not easily applied from existing courses. Consider spreading this across the whole digital sector.

Interesting idea, but not an easy starting point.

Consensus: we agree with points 1 and 2.

@i.hunter: this approach represents 2 radical changes:

funded by the ministry
making time for it

@jon_herries : Digital Skills for a Digital Nation. Most people in IT don’t have university degrees.

@KarenDay: Transformation and leadership are at the top of the job descriptions. We are looking at 15-20 years of transformation. We need more than the network and the DHBs.

@jon_herries We need to be very clear on the problem. The Health Systems review may help with this.

Aiming for the ‘top of the pile’ rather than the bottom of the pile with the DA.

RPA have 20 people in CCIO type roles. This is the same at leading sites in the UK.

We need a CIO type (or 2). This needs to be sector led / co-design.
It really is key to have access to the funding and time.

PGCert / starting small. Important to be able to scale this up.
We don’t know where the students are at the beginning. And there will be very different starting points. Personalisation will be important.

Making use of our existing assets is key. It would be super helpful to include the NZiF, HiNZ, stuff already in place.

It could be really good to use it to pull together all of the existing resources. Incorporating CHIA, NZiF, HiNZ, PGCert, PGDip, Masters, ACHI membership, etc. This could maximise our current assets, enrich them, and give a good pathway for gaining qualifications in the space. The role of the DA would be to co-ordinate this.

@i.hunter: self-selected taught content determined by core competencies self-reflection from any relevant university course, then wrap around a supportive network system, and run workshops linked to HINZ events. Assessment and workshop activities based around work activities and learning, develop a portfolio of assessment types. Allows linkage to further study as courses taken can be credited to future qualifications if wished, plus option of CHIA mid-course, so if not completed DA still leave with something more than started with,

We need a proposal by November.

Small core group to hash out a proposal:
We need a CIO - Nathan to sort this. Maybe Shayne Tong or Mike Collins.
Also @jon_herries, @michael.hosking , @searnshaw , CIO, @KarenDay

@i.hunter Linkage of this to an academic program. Approval, timewise. Using what is ‘out there’ will make this a lot easier.

Bypassing the university red tape is a very important way to go. The most efficient option is very important - we will need to look at these options. Perhaps @KarenDay to articulate these.
There is a lot of scope for academics to flex the details of a course once setup.